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SIP/SIMPLE support

Curious about supporting SIP/SIMPLE users. I suppose there are two ways, have an existing SIP/SIMPLE server and a Jabber gateway that connects and routes messages through this. In this case, the SIP/SIMPLE server has its own users and domain and the users are routed from jabber users based upon the JabberID domain, correct?

Another possibly way is to have a SIP/SIMPLE service that interfaces with the Jabber server user directory directly. Basically, it accepts SIP/SIMPLE registers and logins to the Jabber server on behalf of this user. Any messages from the SIP users are received by the service then translates the message to XMPP and sends on the user behalf. Any messages to the SIP users are routed through the service (since it logged on as the user) and then translates the message to SIP on to the SIP user. In this case, there is only one user directory and all users can have the same domain. This seems cleaner if trying to support multiple types of protocol users on the same server.

Any thoughts on this? What type of SIP/SIMPLE support is available for Jive?

I see Asterisk support, but really just looking for a simple way to support SIP/SIMPLE users as well as Jabber users preferably on the same server.

Ron,

You may want to check out:

http://www.xmpp.org/drafts/draft-saintandre-xmpp-simple-05.html

Something like that would likely be the best approach. BTW, I’‘d be curious to find out why you’‘re interested in SIMPLE support. As far as we can tell, all the SIMPLE implementations are fairly fractured and don’‘t seem to be evolving towards any useful standards-compliance. Still, if it’‘s something enough people needed, I’‘m sure we’'d offer a gateway at some point.

Regards,

Matt

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have read that before and it is basically what I am looking for. I have read about support for gateways, and my understanding is that generally gateways integrate with existing SIP servers, while I am actually needing the SIP protocol support within the same server.

Problem with integrating with an existing server is that the users will have different domains. Users on the Jabber server must have different domain on the SIP server in order for the gateway to function properly (e.g. routing between them). While, what I am needing is that all users exist on the same server under the same domain and in the same user directory, but have the option to login, register, chat, and get presence info through either the XMPP protocol or the SIP protocol.

In my research, I have only found one commercial or open source server that has this support. Wasn’'t sure if I was missing something. Possibly I am in an unique situation.

The reason it is needed is to provide integration for some hardware devices that only support SIP/SIMPLE, yet also need to support Jabber clients. A user may be switching between devices, thus need to switch protocol support (using the same logon userid).

Thanks

I know that here at my company, our IT shop is bringing in Live Communications Server from M$ as the next ‘‘solution’’, but we have a loyal base of Jabber users, and they complain on a regular basis about ‘‘why isn’‘t Jabber able to talk to the current M$ IM system in the company’’ (which isn’'t LCS BTW).

LCS uses SIP/SIMPLE, and hence, to continue to provide value for my users, I need a way to gateway between users on our Jabber server (mostly Unix/Linux/Mac heads, but some Windoze users too) and the forthcoming LCS servers that will be rolled out early next year.

I imagine that other admins like me are in similar predicaments, so I imagine that you’'ll have lots of votes for a gateway that can do this. BTW - Jabber, Inc. already has a SIP/SIMPLE gateway transport announced (not sure if it is shipping yet) for their Jabber XCP server.

Guy,

I’'d be interested to hear why the IT shop is choosing LCS instead of, say, Jive Messenger. That type of feedback is always very useful.

Regards,

Matt

Well, without divulging the company (I promised the ‘‘friendlies’’ in our IT staff I wouldn’'t), the main reason is an entrenched M$ culture - similar to the ‘‘no one ever got fired for buying IBM’’ mantra of yesteryear.

We are pushing Jabber/XMPP to be on the same footing as LCS, but we are fighting an uphill political battle. Would I love to have Jabber/XMPP (and Jive) be the solution? Absolutely. The one thing that the unfriendly IT folks bring up is that ‘‘Jabber can’‘t scale to the 53,000 users we currently have on the M$ product (not LCS), and LCS should handle that with no problem’’ (so says M$ - when I ask for reference customers, they say ‘‘M$ is running their whole enterprise IM out of one data center’’… of course, that’'s not an answer, but you see the mindset).

I reminded them of GoogleTalk, and said that yes, Jive Messenger currently doesn’‘t scale to that # of users, but that isn’'t an indictment of Jabber/XMPP as a protocol. I know about Project Pampero - if I had that in hand today, with a proven solution, I could go back to them.

However, I’'m a realist, and if I can at least get Jive/Jabber/XMPP accepted into the ‘‘Enterprise Architecture’’, and talking to LCS, I can continue to evangelize. Without this, I fear that we might not live to fight another day… Ok, sorry to be so dramatic, but it is kind of important…

-Guy

Would I love to have Jabber/XMPP (and Jive)

be the solution? Absolutely. The one thing that the

unfriendly IT folks bring up is that '‘Jabber can’'t

scale to the 53,000 users we currently have on the M$

product (not LCS), and LCS should handle that with no

problem’’ (so says M$ - when I ask for reference

customers, they say ''M$ is running their whole

enterprise IM out of one data center’’… of course,

that’'s not an answer, but you see the mindset).

Do you need a reference for a Jabber server with +200,000 registered users and +20,000 concurrent users in peaks?

Sure… If you mean GoogleTalk or jabber.org, I already mentioned those two to my unfriendly friends in IT… they were unmoved, so I’‘m not suspecting that I’‘ll be able to get them to dump LCS in favor of Jabber, but if I can at least get them NOT to kill it, and make it interoperate with the people who continue to run whatever IT gives them (LCS), then we stand a fighting chance of competing based on better reliability and features that LCS doesn’‘t have (or doesn’'t do well).

Still, I’‘m always interested in hearing of large installations - I’‘m assuming this reference isn’'t running Jive Messenger (no offense Matt, Gato, et. al - I know you are working on it with Project Pampero, and I love the current Jive Messenger server). Thanks.

-Guy

P.S. - I should mention that I’‘m not in IT myself - I’'m technically in engineering, but am working on an internal project around engineering collaboration tools. However, I spent plenty of time in IT in a past life…

Sure… If you mean GoogleTalk or jabber.org, I

already mentioned those two to my unfriendly friends

in IT… they were unmoved, so I’'m not suspecting that

I’'ll be able to get them to dump LCS in favor of

Jabber, but if I can at least get them NOT to kill

it, and make it interoperate with the people who

continue to run whatever IT gives them (LCS), then we

stand a fighting chance of competing based on better

reliability and features that LCS doesn’'t have (or

doesn’'t do well).

Still, I’'m always interested in hearing of large

installations - I’‘m assuming this reference isn’'t

running Jive Messenger (no offense Matt, Gato, et. al

  • I know you are working on it with Project Pampero,

and I love the current Jive Messenger server).

Thanks.

http://mxit.co.za/

So, digging this thread up from the past a bit. I have it on good authority that my company’'s LCS rollout is later this year. Has there been any progress in the community on a SIP/SIMPLE gateway plugin for Wildfire?

While I could write one, my team has been tasked with other things, and our only option at this point to interconnect with the forthcoming LCS installation would be to move off of Wildfire and onto a larger commercial solution like Jabber, Inc.’‘s Jabber XCP, which has a shipping LCS SIP/SIMPLE gateway. We have a lot of time invested in making Wildfire work, and while I know that switching servers most likely wouldn’‘t have a huge impact on our existing clients, I’'d rather find a way to make this work in Wildfire.

Wildfire development team/community at large - thoughts?

Thanks.

I’'d be interested to hear why the IT shop is choosing

LCS instead of, say, Jive Messenger. That type of

feedback is always very useful.

I think that’'s a pretty simple multi-part answer

1.) Real telephony integration

2.) Collaboration

3.) Presence integration into existing MS apps

Ok, I’'d counter those reasons with the following issues:

  1. Tightly coupled capability for viruses to propagate

  2. Vendor lock in (oh, sorry, we’'re changing the server, gotta sell you more clients)

  3. “Hey, look at all these features - whoops, my IM cannot be delivered”

  4. Platform lock in (what, your enterprise uses Macs or Linux machines for developers - sorry, out of luck, unless you want to use our ‘‘fine web interface’’ blech)

  5. M$ - fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice (more like twice to the nth), shame on me

I was in IT in a previous life, and the main reason I left is the inability for IT people (especially management) to think objectively beyond all of the hype that M$ sales folks spoon feed them with their pretty Powerpoint.

Sorry - I’‘ll stop ranting…as I mentioned earlier, the realist in me realizes that I’‘m not gonna stop the LCS train, but a growing # of folks at my company (both engineering and corporate types alike) have come to rely on our Jabber solution to get their work done. All of the fancy ‘‘collaboration’’ promises from M$ don’'t pay the bills or get product out the door. My users have requested the ability to communicate with their less enlightened brethren who will blindly take whatever our IT department gives them. Hence my request for the SIP/SIMPLE gateway.

I’'ve already had one private email on this subject… further comments/thoughts are always welcome…

whew… I feel better now…

I can agree with most of it. I think LCS is an interesting product, but it has it’'s downsides. Like you said there are lock-ins at every turn. I think you missed a few negative aspects of LCS though.

1.) Pay per user for connectivity to other IM networks

2.) S2S is much easier with Jabber.

Just for fun though, im going to counter counter

1.) Viruses? Do you have any instances of viruses spreading through LCS?

2.) Can’'t argue the lock-in, MS as usual sells a semi open yet modified standard

3.) I don’‘t get this. Are you saying LCS can’‘t deliver IM’'s?

4.) I haven’'t tried the web interface. What corporate user/developer does not have a stand by windows machine?

5.) I really can’‘t counter this, it’'s your opinion that MS is out to get you.

Anyways, I just want my seamless telephony integration.

Sorry - I forgot those two extra downsides… thanks!

So, answer your counters, I’'d have to say the following:

  1. Come on! I know you aren’‘t naive enough to think that a tightly-coupled MS ‘‘integration’’ isn’'t

going to raise serious virus possibilities? At least at my company, they are putting a

separate hunk-o-software (IMAuditor from FaceTime) in place, and trying to get us to put

Jabber under it.

  1. We agree here.

  2. If it is like other Web interfaces for IM I’‘ve tried (with the exception of GoogleTalk’‘s - that’'s very

cool), I’'m unlikely to be moved. The point about people having a standby machine is a red

herring of sorts - we are trying to enable users being able to communicate in the machine they

do 99% of their daily work on, not make them turn to another machine.

  1. I have my tinfoil hat at the ready! But seriously, this opinion is based upon more than

my feelings for MS - I’'ve yet to see a new MS product (or most any product from them) that

isn’'t a big pile of bells and whistles that get in my way. Clean, simple, reliable functionality

is what I’'m after (and my opinion is shared by a LOT of folks in the corporate world)

I’'d have to ask whether your seamless telephony integration is worth all of the other headaches that LCS is sure to bring? If so, check out the recent announcements regarding Jingle (http://www.jabber.org/journal/2005-12-19.shtml) and the Asterisk plugin available for Wildfire.

I’‘m all for integration of commonly used communications, to a point… But I’‘m weird that way - I usually don’'t need/want my IM client to be a dessert topping and a floor wax.